Talk:Cola wars

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Keurig Dr Pepper

The appearance of Keurig Dr Pepper on the comparison table is unwarranted, unexplained and unrelated to the article subject. The point of the article is to document the rivalry between Pepsi and Coca-Cola. Keurig Dr Pepper simply does not feature in the scope of the article. There are no sources cited that include Keurig Dr Pepper in this rivalry.

Other issues with the table;

• There are other companies that also have products in this market, why are they not included?
• The table is entirely US-centric, listing products unavailable out of the US without any indication. The Cola Wars may be between two US companies, but the battleground is surely global?
• The table has the taint of original research. Where are the sources that say these products are essentially the same and compete with one another?

I would propose the Keurig Dr Pepper, at a minimum is removed from the table, unless the company's involvement in the article topic is cited to sources and mentioned within the article. Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 11:35, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Additionally: looking back at the talk page history, I see that this is a long-standing issue, and not the first time that this table has been questioned. But no sensible explanation has been given for it being on this article. It seems pretty straight forward according to Wikipedia policy. If reliable sources don't mention a company in relation to the article subject, there is no reason for it being in the article. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 15:11, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

It's included because it shows that the companies compete directly across the board. Don't get too hung up on the title of the article, which is just the common catchy term that caught on on the early 1980s, and is the appropriate common name because of that widespread use. But it shouldn't be taken literally as the companies compete in all segments, not just colas. And the companies are not just their colas; numerous times I've had to remove good faith but misplaced edits about other products on the Coca-Cola and Pepsi articles because people mistook the articles about the specific brands for the ones about the companies that make them.

And yeah, it's a bit US-centric, but listing all the companies' competing products is going to have to include their large US portfolios. That's not so much because the companies are all US based, but because the US is the largest and most diverse market in terms of products, meaning the companies themselves focus on the US market. Heck, that's why PepsiCo just two days ago announced the replacement of Sierra Mist with Starry, because they are far behind Sprite and 7Up in the lemon-lime segment in the US.

As for including Keurig Dr Pepper, they're acknowledged on the industry as the third main, non-generic player, with their own parallel portfolio, and their own national distribution network. They're also the only other company included in joint marketing efforts through the American Beverage Association trade group. Even a quick glance at the trade group's home page here shows the delivery guy representing Dr Pepper front and center between the Coca-Cola and Pepsi delivery people. No other company has that status. That's why they belong in the chart. oknazevad (talk) 16:59, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

• "Don't get too hung up on the title of the article" - The title of the article relates to what sources call the subject. It is the key way we can tie sources to the article. We can't alter what it means, or refers to, unless the sources do. Perusal of the sources very much suggest it refers solely to a rivalry between Pespi and Coca Cola.
• "the companies compete directly across the board" - Indeed. But the issue is which companies?
• "And the companies are not just their colas" - Indeed, but that is not the issue I am raising.
• "Keurig Dr Pepper, they're acknowledged on the industry as the third main, non-generic player" - Why is this relevant? Could you please show some sources that mention Keurig Dr Pepper in relation to the article topic.
• The only reason I raised the issue of US-centrism (it's not a significant issue, IMHO) is because you previously justified including Keurig Dr Pepper in order to avoid US-centrism. Now you say it's not a big deal. So including Keurig Dr Pepper does nothing to address it, and is not a reason for doing so.

You are extrapolating the article topic into a wider topic which, if it merits an article, would be Competing products within the US soft drink market, or something similar. 'Cola wars' would certainly be a part of that article, but the reverse does not apply. The sources on this article say that Cola wars is/was between two companies. Are there sources that include Keurig Dr Pepper and make it three companies? Why are they not on the article? Unless some can be found that include Keurig Dr Pepper, they have no more business on this article than any other beverage company.

--Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 11:44, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Is The New York Times good enough for you? Actually, though, this does point out that some material on what effects of Coke and Pepsi's intense focus on each other during he peak of the 1980s cola wars had on other companies, especially Dr Pepper, which kinda became the third company by default because of its purchases of Canada Dry and 7Up, which were prompted by antitrust concerns about Coke and/or Pepsi attempting to buy them during that period. oknazevad (talk) 16:55, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Good source. Some pertinent quotes from it (with my emphasis in bold);

• "AS far as the cola wars are concerned, Richard Q. Armstrong feels like one of your typical injured innocent bystanders."
• "the price-cutting by Coca-Cola and Pepsi-Cola that has become one weapon in their war has been forced upon the rest of the industry"

If the president of Dr Pepper feels like a "innocent bystander", his company can hardly be part of the "war". The second quote talks about a war between Coca-Cola and Pepsi-Cola, and how it has impacted on the rest of the industry. Nothing to single out Keurig Dr Pepper, any more than any other company.

So I'm afraid this source simply re-inforces what I've already said. Whether they have become "the third company" is your opinion.

Do you have a source that makes it clear that when sources talk about "Cola wars", they include Keurig Dr Pepper? --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 17:16, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, they're out there. Heck, this one is just over a year old and explicitly talks about the "three major players" in the cola wars (using that name) and is especially interesting because it's topic is specifically marketing on social media, that is, it's not just about the historic period 40 years ago where the competition was fiercest, but how it's still ongoing. And here's a piece from three weeks ago also about Keurig Dr Pepper's third-main-player status and how they are clearly in a class above any other non-Coke-or-Pepsi company. In other words, the term "cola wars" is about the industry competition as a whole, not just the specific rivalry. And that industry has three major players. The chart should list all three. oknazevad (talk) 17:43, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Your first source considers the possibility of them being part of the Cola Wars. (Posing the headline as a question is a common tactic to distance the writer from a questionable fact.) It does not place them in it.

Your second source is, I'm afraid, not visible to me due to GDPR legislation. What does it say? Does it say that Keurig Dr Pepper is/was part of the Cola Wars?

Your last source is little better than a blog. But is starts off mentioning Pepsi and Coca-Cola in the Cola Wars, then introduces Dr Pepper as a competitor of the two. Nowhere does it say they are part of the Cola Wars. Indeed, everything about the article is about contrasting Dr Pepper's marketing approach from the other two.

I'm not saying that Keurig Dr Pepper is not a competitor (third place or otherwise, it doesn't matter), I'm saying they are not considered by the sources as part of the Cola War. If they were, why is this not mentioned (and cited) in the article? Why do they just appear as an unexplained additional column on this table?--Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 15:20, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm guessing you missed the fourth one from CNN. As for the second you cannot see it's from the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, and its headline is literally "Dr Pepper Snapple sitting pretty in the cola wars". Could the article do a better job of discussing Keurig Dr Pepper's history including especially the effect of Coke and Pepsi's business maneuvers in the 80s lead to it being the third main player in the industry? Absolutely. But I fail to see how removing information improves the article. oknazevad (talk) 23:03, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

I forgot to mention your CNN link. It doesn't even mention "Cola Wars", so is irrelevant. What does the Atlanta Journal-Constitution say about Dr Pepper's role in the Cola Wars? Can it be used as content and a cite? I'm afraid, as unsourced and challenged material, the column on Dr Pepper should be removed, so it would help the article if there was something, anything, that was sourced. It's not the responsibility of this article to discuss anything about Keurig Dr Pepper's history, without first demonstrating its relevance to the article topic. Currently there is simply nothing in the article that does this. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 21:20, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Since you haven't produce any cites that has Keurig Dr Pepper involved in the article topic, other that ones that describe them as the third main competitor in the soft drink market (which I have repeatedly explained to you isn't relevant), and haven't added any to the article, which still makes no reference to them other than in this unexplained, unsourced table column, and you appear to be set on having this unsourced and challenged material on the article, I propose I raise a RFC. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 09:47, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I was busy and didn't get back to you. The point I've been making and you seem to miss is that "cola wars" is not just the rivalry of Coca-Cola and Pepsi as products, but also a shorthand used for the entire US soda market. Thats what the sources show, and that's why it's relevant. I could use some assistance in incorporating that into the article, but I still see no reason to remove the column of the chart. oknazevad (talk) 14:42, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

The sources that talk about "Cola Wars" don't mention Keurig Dr Pepper as being involved (or are at best listed as a by-stander), and only talk about Pepsi and Coca Cola. So your above definition of Cola Wars is not reflected in the sources. Focus in an article is important, so it doesn't get swamped by details that are only relevant in the opinion of editors.--Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 18:28, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Except you're wrong. Perhaps it's because you can't see some of the sources, but they literally discuss Keurig Dr Pepper as a participant. I'm sorry, I don't know what else to say. It appears you cannot garner the whole picture due to silly geographic restrictions (kinda defeats the purpose of a world wide web), but that doesn't change the facts that "cola wars" is also used as a shorthand for the soda industry as a whole. oknazevad (talk) 14:59, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, but that is simply not true. I can see all the web sources on this article and none of them even mention Dr Pepper. The only exception is one that mentions them in passing when discussing Sprite. That leaves the cited book For God, Country and Coca-Cola, which is about Coca-Cola's history and is used to cite Pepsi offering to sell out to Coca-Cola. Again, nothing about Dr Pepper. The link you provide above is available here and doesn't mention the Cola Wars other than in the headline. It says "Dr Pepper Snapple is a distant third-place player in the nonalcoholic beverage market". If that is enough to place them as a "combatant" in the Cola Wars, we have to wonder why they don't say this, and why none of the other sources do.

If there is a source that mentions Dr Pepper's involvement in the article topic, could you please indicate which one and where? --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 12:01, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

So I've been thinking about this, and I have an alternate proposal: split the chart out into a separate article about the comparison of product lineups. Just can't think of a good name for it. That the three major soda companies have parallel product lines is a notable thing. But this probably isn't the place for it. oknazevad (talk) 05:04, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Sounds like an excellent idea. Comparison of soft drink products? But you'd need sources that collate the products and establish that they are in direct competition to each other. It could also include market share figures, or just sales figures, if they can be sourced. Care would be needed to not involve any original synthesis, i.e. drawing, or suggesting, any conclusions about the success, failure, dominance, popularity of drinks that isn't in the sources. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 15:03, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Been a bit busy lately (sorry for taking so long to get back to you), but I'll work on it when I get the chance. Probably after New York Fashion Week. oknazevad (talk) 22:28, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Separate the drink comparison table into its own page

On this page there is a really useful table comparing the various makers of soda and what they call their flavors. I came across this table on a wikipedia trawl and found it terribly interesting. On going to find it later for reference, however, I had a lot of trouble finding it. I think this is because it's hidden in this page, which is not an intuitive place to find it. I think we should make a new page that is just the comparison table (preferably adding to it what we can) to ease in people finding this important information. Sallysballs (talk) 17:52, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Upcoming Film

Thought I’d let you know about the upcoming Judd Apatow film about the Cola Wars. [1] [2] [3] Kaden Bayne Vanciel (talk) 05:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC)